The Art of Storytelling | Andrew Gordon

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How you start, how you iterate, how you get better story, what are the elements, what are the places that you get stuck?

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How do you get through the places where you are stuck and then not waste that crisis and turn it into like a real piece of gold?

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Welcome to A Heart for Space.

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I am your host, Dr. Emo Jehunger.

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Join me as we uncover what it takes to reach beyond the limits of what we think is possible and turn the biggest dreams into tangible reality.

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Andrew, thank you so much today for being here.

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I am pretty excited to have the opportunity to talk to you, not only because I'm a fan of your work, but also a fan of your story.

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But let's start it off this way.

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So for someone who's never met you or heard of you, how would you introduce yourself if you met him, you know, at a party?

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Well, I just say that, you know, my name is Andrew Gordon.

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I, uh,

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I'm somebody that lives in California.

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I'm originally from New York.

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And I like to think of myself as a filmmaker or a creative person.

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I've always been interested in characters, you know, and whether they're in real life or animating them, which is what I did for work, which was animating characters at Pixar for about 20 years.

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And then I worked at other places like Warner Brothers and Illumination and

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Double negative and, you know, I've been around.

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And now I've been, you know, in terms of my work, I've been exploring how to make films using artificial intelligence technology and bringing the human element to it.

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Which is very cool, and I look forward to talking to you more about that.

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When you were a kid, I mean, what kind of kid were you?

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Because it seems like you knew early on that animation and storytelling and that creative piece was part of it.

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Were you someone always doodling?

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Were you out there playing sports, and then you kind of happened upon this later in your teen years?

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Well, it's funny that you should ask that.

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When I was a kid, I had a cousin...

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named Joy, who had a little book that really, for some reason I have a lot of memory of the book because she had little characters drawn in the book.

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And Mr.

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Worm and you know, like all these little characters, but they were sort of good drawings.

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And I always thought that was kind of cool.

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It left a really large memory in my head.

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And then as I got older, I became interested in computer graphics and doing things on the computer and drawing.

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And of course, drawing in my book and drawing, you know, in general, I was an artistic person, you know.

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And so I, I, I wasn't, I knew something that I wanted to do was, that was creative.

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That was what I was into.

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Does your cousin know she had that impact on you?

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Did you ever bring her to Pixar?

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Yeah.

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I don't think so.

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I haven't kept in touch with her, but she's a very creative person.

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But that side of my mom's family was very creative people.

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And my father's side was more musicians.

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A lot of them were musicians.

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And so there was a good mixture there of sort of different types of creativity.

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And then you started actually not in animation.

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Were you at Commodore Amiga and you did some video games in the 80s?

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It wasn't like you were making movies.

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No, no, I didn't work there.

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I basically, like, when I was a kid in high school, probably even at the end of middle school,

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That was when computer graphics was just being kind of born.

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You know, there were computers that had like four colors.

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If you're lucky, 16 colors.

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Then the Amiga, the Commodore Amiga came out, which had like thousands of colors to play with.

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And I bought that computer.

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And so that computer was the thing that sort of was this super tool that I had to do things back then.

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into orbit, you know, you might say, uh, in terms of what I wanted to like do.

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And I, my, my goal was always to work for a company like Pixar because they were considered the best and really pioneering that, that field, you know?

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And so I was definitely into it, you know, like I was into how do you make computer generated imagery?

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I guess when did you know, like, was it at a young age?

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You were like, this is it.

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This is like, I love this technology.

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I know I want to do this.

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It had to be like sixth grade, seventh grade.

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Seventh grade.

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I had the computer.

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I was really into it.

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I was going to conferences when I was in high school.

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I was buying software.

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I was trying to learn.

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And I was, you know, I was really just, I was kind of into it, like how people get into certain things.

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Yeah.

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I was into that and my bike, you know, into going and doing tricks on my bike.

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And, you know, I did do sports as well.

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You know, I was a wrestler and all.

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But growing up in New Jersey, there really wasn't many computer graphics places or really good animation places.

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So I ended up learning the hard way that I had to go to the West Coast of California.

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Is it that?

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Specifically.

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Yeah.

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Where did you do animation school?

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Is that in the West Coast?

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Well, I went to the West Coast.

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I ended up going first to this thing called CSU Summer Arts.

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And that sort of opened my mind to like what was possible.

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There were a lot of people there from...

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very famous animation schools like Cal arts and, and they were the teachers.

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And, and I, once I saw that caliber and that sort of creativity and also the idea of being in California where you're looking at the beach and you've got redwoods around you, I was kind of blown away coming from New York, you know, in New Jersey.

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And so, you know, that, that was where my sights were set on like, all right, I got to learn how to animate.

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I made a film there.

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And then I ended up going to a school in Vancouver, British Columbia and sort of, um,

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um, that's where I got my first job out of that school.

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That's very cool.

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So you, I mean, that's pretty, you were in beautiful places then.

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I mean, yeah, I think anyone in California knows and then Vancouver.

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So yeah, it was gorgeous.

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It was, it was just a different world, you know, ironically though, you know, I do think about the East coast and the type of people and like the type of people that I grew up with really informed how I would animate.

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Yeah.

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And then you started with Looney Tunes, you said.

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What was that?

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I mean, you know, I grew up, Looney Tunes was iconic.

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I don't know if the kids get it as much now, but in the 80s, that was the thing.

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And so what was your first professional experience like?

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Like, here you are, you've made it, you're in a big, big studio.

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Well, it was really actually quite amazing.

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You know, I was in this school, I didn't have much money,

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I had just enough money to get through as much school as I could get through in Vancouver.

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And then I got a job at Warner Brothers, one of three people that they hired.

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Two guys with me, one who still works at Pixar.

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And, you know, they put us in the Looney Tunes division.

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Which was the Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck.

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One guy went into another area.

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And, you know, I was made an animator, which was back then really kind of unheard of out of school being an animator.

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You know, you used to have to go through a training process where you become an in-betweener and an assistant animator and then finally an animator.

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But I got hired as an animator because I was mostly on the computer.

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And they needed computer animators.

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And so I liked it.

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It was really exciting.

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You know, I was working over there and it was very prestigious and there was all kinds of lot parties and there was there was things going on and cartoons.

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I look back on that, you know, it was very exciting.

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But I did get tired of it.

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You know, I got I didn't get tired of it.

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I just.

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I wanted more out of what the experience was.

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I didn't think that this was like, this is it.

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Like I'm going to be making commercials.

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And like, I wanted to work on a movie, you know, especially after seeing Toy Story.

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So I set my sights to work at Pixar and I got rejected.

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Honestly, they thought my stuff was too cartoony.

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They didn't really didn't really mesh with them.

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So I was going to go back to the East Coast.

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I was going to go back.

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and work at a company back there.

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I think they were called Blue Sky.

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They did Ice Age and so forth.

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But then I got a call because somebody had seen a little test I did online of a bug, and I ended up getting hired on a bug's life.

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That's awesome.

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How quickly after that initial rejection did you get called back?

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Were you pretty devastated after the rejection?

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Because if you have your sights set on something, it's pretty hard when they say,

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Sorry, not for not for us.

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I think I was just too like most young people.

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I was too, you know, I had blinders on.

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I only had the one thing in the site.

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And so I think at any company can kind of smell that these days.

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And so you have to keep your options open.

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So it was more that I had a lot of other offers.

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that kept, like I had an offer at Disney, I had an offer at DreamWorks, and those were not exactly, you know, illustrious jobs in terms of what the content was, but I was still, you know, I could get a job at those places at that time, and that's what Pixar sort of forced their hand to make a choice, you know, I was almost worked on Iron Giant, you know, I could have worked on...

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I could have worked on Hercules at the time or Prince of Egypt, but I ended up going up to Pixar and I was I was on a bug's life.

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It was really exciting.

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What did it feel like for you to get that second chance and kind of here you are like you finally the first time they said no and now here you're working on a big picture.

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A very and a very good one that, you know, I think did very well.

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I mean, I remember watching.

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Yeah, it was an awesome one.

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I remember driving to Pixar, you know, for the first time in my car.

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And, you know, it was very much, it wasn't as fancy as Warner Brothers or DreamWorks or Disney.

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It was just a little startup.

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But it had such a lore around it and such a mythology that it was kind of like going to the mecca of computer animation.

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You knew everybody there was the best.

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The best animators, the best scientists, the best people, the best people leading it, Steve Jobs, you know.

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So it had this allure, but it wasn't in a fancy building.

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Like, it was in a really junky building, but it was fun.

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And the environment was unlike anything I had ever witnessed.

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I was at this corporate company, Warner Brothers, which was fun, but very corporate, you know, huge.

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And I went to this company and it was everything I had thought it was going to be in my head.

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Like I really, really, and I helped build that culture even further with, with, I think the feeling of like, that's what made the place special, I think was the culture, you know, and, and I pushed on that culture.

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Do you think that had a lot to do with the leaders that were there, or was it just the creative animators?

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I mean, you get a bunch of creative types together.

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It was a combination of things.

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You had a lot of weirdos kind of working there that were kind of counter-L.A. culture of filmmaking.

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They were up here in New York, or excuse me, they were up in Northern California.

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Not dissimilar to Lucas, who did Star Wars in Marin County, and...

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and, you know, Coppola and like people that didn't want to necessarily be in LA.

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And so it was a different feeling.

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And then I think that the leadership of a company, you know, you have a leader that they kind of lead what the culture is going to be.

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And they sort of make it okay for everybody else below them to sort of,

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feel comfortable if your company is led by somebody that doesn't want to have fun or is all about getting the numbers and no fun and just work then that's how the company will be but Pixar happened to be kind of run by a kid at that time in a sense you might say John Lasseter was the person that really was the creative brain behind it that everybody followed you know and so he sort of kind of protected us in terms of

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of what we would do and what we could get away with in terms of the fun, you know?

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Yeah.

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And it went into the movie, to be honest with you.

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Like, the fun came in, it showed up on the screen, you know?

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Yeah, I mean, I believe that, yeah, because if you're putting your heart and soul into it.

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Was there any feeling of imposter syndrome when you walked in?

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You were like, okay, now I'm here.

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Yes.

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Yeah, that's a great question.

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I did have a lot of imposter syndrome.

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I, I used to get quite stressed, you know, in my mid 20s that I was going to get fired or I wasn't working hard enough or they're going to figure out that I'm not good because in animation, there's a saying which has been around since the day at Disney days.

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which is you're only as good as your last shot that you had.

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Yeah.

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And so if you had a bad dailies, you know, imagine going to work every day,

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and you show your work, and if nobody gets a laugh or it doesn't look good, you kind of walk out of there feeling awful.

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And that was kind of how it was.

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You were judging everybody's work right there in front of you.

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And so I did have imposter syndrome, and how I got over it was mostly just

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I don't know, working through it or going for a walk or talking to other people or just staying late and redoing my work.

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And, you know, it was a good type of stress, you know?

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Yeah, no, that's fair.

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Did you find that going your kind of less conventional path on your way to Pixar made you a better animator?

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Do you think it brought something that, as opposed to if you'd followed the traditional route that gets people, you know, to that level,

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I would have liked to have a little bit more college, to be honest with you, because I think that if I had gone and if I had done it better...

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potentially, I think I didn't know as much about storytelling as I do now.

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And I had to learn that the hard way.

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I would have liked to go to a place where I just had done more films because ultimately you don't learn about this stuff by reading books.

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You just learn it by doing it.

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And, you know, it's like getting in shape.

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You know, if you don't work out, you're not going to get in shape.

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And it's the same with storytelling.

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If you want to tell good stories, you have to make a lot of them and make a lot of bad ones too.

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And understand why they're bad and what doesn't work about them.

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And so that's what I just, you know, I feel like back in those early days I missed out on was the short film making.

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Well, yeah, let's talk about the whole process.

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So how do you approach animating a character?

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And I mean, you've had a lot of famous characters that you've animated.

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What's your process of figuring out who they are?

214
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And then how do you convey that on the screen?

215
00:15:30.968 --> 00:15:34.411
Well, I mean, it depends on the character.

216
00:15:34.791 --> 00:15:39.175
So if I was animating a character, like I worked on Finding Nemo, for instance,

217
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You know, that was very, very clear, like, what they wanted out of that.

218
00:15:44.972 --> 00:15:50.380
They said, we don't want these to feel like fish in people suits or in fish suits.

219
00:15:50.780 --> 00:15:52.242
They need to feel like fish.

220
00:15:52.903 --> 00:15:55.787
So we're going to give you guys a little extra money.

221
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You can go out and.

222
00:15:57.241 --> 00:15:58.622
learn to dive or something.

223
00:15:58.642 --> 00:16:20.944
And so I, I did, I took the, the money that they gave us for, um, education and I spent it on getting a diving license and, uh, and I studied fish and then how fish locomote and how they move through water and, and, and then they brought in experts for that too, as well, you know, like how, so that was like the physicality of the, of the character.

224
00:16:21.803 --> 00:16:25.627
Then you start to think about, well, who is this character?

225
00:16:26.347 --> 00:16:29.530
In the case of a character like Gil, I animated Gil.

226
00:16:30.211 --> 00:16:30.451
Yeah.

227
00:16:30.511 --> 00:16:32.453
He was Willem Dafoe's character.

228
00:16:32.533 --> 00:16:39.119
And so I was very heavily influenced by Clint Eastwood, you know, because Clint Eastwood has a certain...

229
00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:58.056
look in his eyes that when he plays his characters and he's sort of squinty and and and you sort of sort of feel like he's hiding something so a lot of times when you're animating a character you'll hang it on something you'll say it feels like this character or yeah this person in my life you know mike wazowski

230
00:16:58.878 --> 00:17:10.580
is basically just based off of all of my friends who I grew up with and my brothers and people that I would work in New York with, you know.

231
00:17:11.150 --> 00:17:14.893
I was going to say he's very New York, a big New York feel for that guy.

232
00:17:15.254 --> 00:17:15.734
Yeah, yeah.

233
00:17:15.754 --> 00:17:16.735
He's like a New Yorker.

234
00:17:16.755 --> 00:17:20.258
He's like a classic guy with a Napoleon complex.

235
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He's kind of like a little big guy.

236
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And so that's where I got the acting was very easy to see.

237
00:17:29.427 --> 00:17:32.750
Sometimes you have to dig into stuff that you don't know, like –

238
00:17:34.786 --> 00:17:50.589
Edna Mode was a character that I animated a lot in Incredibles, and that was very much based off of flamboyance and Norma Desmond and a character that is snobbish and has her nose up to everything.

239
00:17:51.210 --> 00:17:52.030
It's caricature.

240
00:17:52.470 --> 00:17:54.170
You're caricaturing something.

241
00:17:54.470 --> 00:18:01.752
I think that's what makes those characters in those early Pixar movies so great is the caricatured nature of

242
00:18:02.732 --> 00:18:08.738
a character, like what the character feels like, you know, and it becomes kind of timeless, you know, if you do it right, you know.

243
00:18:08.778 --> 00:18:12.561
And so I, I was, I was fortunate to work on a lot of those great movies.

244
00:18:13.602 --> 00:18:20.348
Well, I thought Edna was great too, because the way she, like, she cares for the family and the kids.

245
00:18:20.388 --> 00:18:21.670
I mean, I think it was a very,

246
00:18:23.044 --> 00:18:29.328
It was not something I would expect out of that character, because you think, okay, this is the person that's designing all these things.

247
00:18:29.368 --> 00:18:35.713
But there's very much a deeper part of her that comes through without having to say it.

248
00:18:35.773 --> 00:18:37.874
You mean the costume designer, right?

249
00:18:37.894 --> 00:18:38.675
Is that not Edna?

250
00:18:38.695 --> 00:18:39.115
Yeah.

251
00:18:39.576 --> 00:18:40.056
Yeah, Edna.

252
00:18:40.436 --> 00:18:42.398
Yeah, I mean, she was told to us like...

253
00:18:43.218 --> 00:18:47.401
by the director, Brad Bird, he said, she's like half German, half Japanese.

254
00:18:47.942 --> 00:19:00.390
So, you know, so a Japanese, like, you know, there's a lot of like structure and honor and then German engineering and precision and the way that they do business or something, you know.

255
00:19:00.450 --> 00:19:04.914
And so like that informs your choices when you're like, oh, okay, that's a good way.

256
00:19:04.974 --> 00:19:06.575
That's like a great direction, you know.

257
00:19:06.975 --> 00:19:10.358
And I think that with any character, you just approach it,

258
00:19:11.218 --> 00:19:12.339
Like, what do they need?

259
00:19:12.599 --> 00:19:13.599
Like, what do they want?

260
00:19:14.460 --> 00:19:15.800
And how do they act?

261
00:19:15.941 --> 00:19:22.604
And how do they make it so that they're not too much of a caricature, but they're believable?

262
00:19:23.664 --> 00:19:25.946
And also likable, right?

263
00:19:26.026 --> 00:19:26.986
Like, that's a huge one.

264
00:19:27.006 --> 00:19:28.747
It's like, how do you make a character likable?

265
00:19:29.327 --> 00:19:32.369
You know, you're ultimately, you're following these characters around.

266
00:19:33.879 --> 00:19:38.321
And the last thing you want is a character that's not likable, that you're like, I don't really care about this character.

267
00:19:38.742 --> 00:19:39.942
Like, you have to care.

268
00:19:39.962 --> 00:19:47.467
Otherwise, you won't sit in the movies, especially now where most people are on their phones, you know, swiping.

269
00:19:47.667 --> 00:19:51.229
And, you know, it's hard to keep people's attention.

270
00:19:51.289 --> 00:19:53.910
I mean, and that's a good point because you do have to care.

271
00:19:54.170 --> 00:20:00.294
And Pixar has made films where adults cry over, I don't know, toys, fish, robots.

272
00:20:01.253 --> 00:20:02.494
Like, how does that happen?

273
00:20:02.514 --> 00:20:15.543
Like, what's that alchemy as a creator, as someone who's animating these, that leads to someone like me sitting there and, like, sobbing my eyes out, you know, because, I don't know, Woody gets taken off somewhere wild.

274
00:20:15.603 --> 00:20:24.749
I mean, I think it's, you know, in the earlier, in the movies that I worked on, at least, they were all about, like,

275
00:20:25.155 --> 00:20:42.842
a common theme that everybody could relate to being thrown away or not being forgotten or regret, you know, like Carl and up is all about, he regrets never taking his wife to these falls or,

276
00:20:44.338 --> 00:20:47.922
a father being worried about their son getting lost.

277
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Like everybody has these sort of fears, you know, and, and, and relatable things.

278
00:20:52.626 --> 00:20:57.331
So I think people really relate to that, you know?

279
00:20:57.391 --> 00:21:00.694
And I think that's the thing is it's, it's relatability.

280
00:21:00.954 --> 00:21:01.335
And then,

281
00:21:03.063 --> 00:21:13.667
You have to kind of get into the story so that you're not hitting people over the head with it so that they're like, like you don't want it to feel like spoon fed.

282
00:21:13.747 --> 00:21:22.611
You know, there's got to be a way that you can make the story so that it feels naturally and that the themes come out in the right way.

283
00:21:22.671 --> 00:21:23.572
And that's hard.

284
00:21:23.912 --> 00:21:27.013
That's really hard and requires a lot of iteration.

285
00:21:27.664 --> 00:21:28.885
and a lot of redoing.

286
00:21:29.906 --> 00:21:34.228
And I think that's why those movies are so good is because they get done, like, you know, they get redone like eight times.

287
00:21:35.629 --> 00:21:47.037
And do you think that's part of what made Pixar's culture of like, I mean, they really like, particularly when you were there, it's like consistently great creative work that's hard to do decade after decade.

288
00:21:47.057 --> 00:21:52.701
And do you think that that was a big part of it or what else do you think it is about Pixar that really led to that?

289
00:21:53.627 --> 00:21:58.110
I'd say that it was definitely a collection of people that worked well together.

290
00:21:58.190 --> 00:22:05.915
I think it was a certain culture of being able to fail and know that you're going to hit a crisis.

291
00:22:05.975 --> 00:22:09.357
But if you do hit the crisis, that you're going to take advantage of it and reboot it.

292
00:22:10.918 --> 00:22:15.521
There was good leadership, you know, in terms of who was running the company, I think.

293
00:22:16.561 --> 00:22:33.541
Uh, you know, I think it was a lot of things, you know, it was also a collective like want to make great stuff and excellence, you know, sort of like crafting like a great watch or something, you know, like, like it's like, there's like a history of, of, of excellence, you know?

294
00:22:33.581 --> 00:22:36.684
And so I think it was a lot of those things, you know, and I think, um.

295
00:22:37.505 --> 00:22:39.847
Those things, you know, still exist there.

296
00:22:39.927 --> 00:22:48.312
And I can't speak for what it is now, but I just think that, you know, everything changes and people's tastes change and their watching habits change.

297
00:22:48.332 --> 00:22:51.754
So, you know, it's very hard to kind of keep it going, you know.

298
00:22:52.635 --> 00:22:58.539
What have you brought from that time there into your current company and role that you're leading?

299
00:22:59.720 --> 00:23:04.143
Well, right now, I mean, I'm working at a company called ITEL, which is started by...

300
00:23:05.107 --> 00:23:06.728
the founder of YouTube, Chad Hurley.

301
00:23:07.228 --> 00:23:22.379
And my job basically here is to kind of make stuff and make stories and use the tool to create and give feedback on what we need to make things using this new technology.

302
00:23:23.199 --> 00:23:32.706
And it's not easy because, you know, the thing about AI that's really different from working on an animated film is that with an animated film, you start off with a storyboard, you start off with...

303
00:23:33.446 --> 00:23:35.747
with drawings and sketches and simple stuff.

304
00:23:36.187 --> 00:23:37.868
And it starts out rough and it evolves.

305
00:23:38.869 --> 00:23:43.131
And AI, it kind of gives you like the final thing in a few minutes.

306
00:23:43.331 --> 00:23:44.391
And you're like, whoa.

307
00:23:45.432 --> 00:23:51.595
And so you're looking at like a final thing before you've even figured out the story sometimes.

308
00:23:52.417 --> 00:23:54.258
And it can be very seductive.

309
00:23:55.079 --> 00:24:05.845
Also, you don't get the nuance of acting and the specificity of how little things you can do in animation because, you know, it's handcrafted rather than prompted.

310
00:24:05.945 --> 00:24:11.488
So I think what I brought from Pixar to answer your question is more of like.

311
00:24:13.400 --> 00:24:17.383
How do we make people care about these characters or stories?

312
00:24:18.364 --> 00:24:22.046
How do we make tools that we can make this stuff with?

313
00:24:22.646 --> 00:24:22.867
Yeah.

314
00:24:23.207 --> 00:24:27.550
How do we make an environment that makes us feel like pushing?

315
00:24:28.170 --> 00:24:34.555
You know, that's another thing is that the tools at Pixar were really good because we were always kind of pushing on things.

316
00:24:35.577 --> 00:24:39.358
on the tools group to make stuff for us that like we needed, you know?

317
00:24:39.458 --> 00:24:40.559
And I think that's really important.

318
00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:48.822
So, yeah, I mean, it's also just never giving up and, but it's hard, you know, it's, it's, it's different anytime you go to a place, you know?

319
00:24:49.647 --> 00:24:53.909
I mean, and you've, I think, pushed the limits even from like a cultural standpoint before.

320
00:24:53.929 --> 00:25:04.573
Because if I recall it, Pixar, when you guys moved into the new building, the nicer building, the fancier building, you found a tiny door and ended up making this Lucky 7 lounge.

321
00:25:04.633 --> 00:25:09.055
So you took like an air conditioning vent and made it into something cool.

322
00:25:09.355 --> 00:25:10.276
Oh, the Love Lounge.

323
00:25:10.356 --> 00:25:13.717
And the Lucky 7 Lounge was the one that followed it up.

324
00:25:14.097 --> 00:25:16.979
Yeah, you know, I mean, that kind of happened because...

325
00:25:18.019 --> 00:25:21.200
People traditionally at Pixar would decorate their offices.

326
00:25:21.260 --> 00:25:29.682
You know, they, some people had a tiki office and other people had like a cardboard bagoda above their office or a tent.

327
00:25:30.042 --> 00:25:34.323
And so, you know, it was a little bit of a competition of like, who's going to make the coolest office?

328
00:25:34.663 --> 00:25:34.943
Yeah.

329
00:25:35.003 --> 00:25:41.925
And so when I found the door, I was like, this is a whole space in there.

330
00:25:41.965 --> 00:25:43.665
You know, like it was big.

331
00:25:44.245 --> 00:25:45.666
And so I just started putting up.

332
00:25:45.686 --> 00:25:46.046
Yeah.

333
00:25:47.096 --> 00:26:05.115
fabric and not dissimilar to like this little space that I'm working in, you know, it's got, you know, it's got like little drinks and stuff and, you know, but, but like, I, I just started putting things up and I, I was inviting people and then it started, it was like a joke at first, but then it started to become like, this is cool.

334
00:26:05.335 --> 00:26:09.319
You know, like people, people were like wanting to see it.

335
00:26:10.120 --> 00:26:16.064
And then, and then, and then Steve jobs would come by or then, Hey, this famous actors come by.

336
00:26:16.084 --> 00:26:16.925
I want to see the secret room.

337
00:26:17.365 --> 00:26:20.027
And then it became like on now I'm on the tour.

338
00:26:20.627 --> 00:26:21.027
Yeah.

339
00:26:21.047 --> 00:26:30.234
So, and then when I moved out of that office, they said, Hey, we're not going to be able to let you keep this area, this office, but we do have another office.

340
00:26:30.274 --> 00:26:31.114
That's kind of bigger.

341
00:26:31.635 --> 00:26:32.815
You could do what you want there.

342
00:26:33.396 --> 00:26:34.737
And we're even going to give you a budget.

343
00:26:35.297 --> 00:26:36.278
And I was like, really?

344
00:26:36.358 --> 00:26:38.539
And so they gave me money to build something.

345
00:26:40.034 --> 00:26:40.834
How can I push it?

346
00:26:41.275 --> 00:26:43.096
And I built a casino behind a bar.

347
00:26:43.936 --> 00:26:44.817
That's awesome.

348
00:26:44.937 --> 00:26:50.360
And then I think that everybody started to build their offices up in ridiculous ways.

349
00:26:50.480 --> 00:26:53.722
Like, I mean, the Pixar offices are amazing.

350
00:26:53.802 --> 00:26:59.084
Like, there's incredible handcrafted stuff that the animators have done.

351
00:26:59.705 --> 00:27:01.286
Yeah, that's fantastic.

352
00:27:02.086 --> 00:27:05.548
Part of what you were doing in the 2000s, too, was teaching, right?

353
00:27:05.588 --> 00:27:08.250
You did some teaching of animation to people.

354
00:27:08.470 --> 00:27:09.050
Is that correct?

355
00:27:10.067 --> 00:27:10.307
Yeah.

356
00:27:10.687 --> 00:27:10.908
Yeah.

357
00:27:10.928 --> 00:27:12.929
I mean, what drove you to do that?

358
00:27:12.949 --> 00:27:16.091
I mean, cause you're working full time, but you're, you think it's important.

359
00:27:16.111 --> 00:27:24.336
Well, I've had a little bit of a chip on my shoulder to be honest with you, because I, I didn't get the best education.

360
00:27:24.676 --> 00:27:25.216
Like, yeah.

361
00:27:25.296 --> 00:27:31.680
And, and, and a lot of the times, a lot of the teachers that I learned from, they didn't really want to teach me.

362
00:27:31.720 --> 00:27:34.442
They wanted to kind of like keep away from,

363
00:27:35.462 --> 00:27:56.963
the secrets yeah and i was like if i ever get a chance to teach i'm gonna do it and i'm gonna really give it away what makes this stuff special you know and so that's why i started teaching i started to teach you know for and i taught for more than 10 years and i and i did a lot of lecturing around the world and i also did uh

364
00:27:57.763 --> 00:28:01.867
I helped start a school and I started a program and, you know, I really was into it.

365
00:28:02.167 --> 00:28:03.889
You know, I probably trained my replacements.

366
00:28:04.389 --> 00:28:10.975
So, you know, but I, I enjoyed it because, because I think that being a student is,

367
00:28:12.545 --> 00:28:22.295
is essentially like the best part of working at a place where if you feel like you're still learning and you're a student, then it keeps you hungry and motivated.

368
00:28:22.455 --> 00:28:22.755
Yeah.

369
00:28:23.196 --> 00:28:26.840
And when you don't know the answers, I think that's like the best place to be.

370
00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:28.862
Like you're finding out what the answer is.

371
00:28:30.227 --> 00:28:35.715
And is that also why you were interested in leading internship programs when you were at Pixar?

372
00:28:35.815 --> 00:28:36.095
Yeah.

373
00:28:36.235 --> 00:28:43.065
I mean, the internship was sort of like a thing that, again, I had been hazed a lot for

374
00:28:44.886 --> 00:28:46.407
inside and outside of Pixar.

375
00:28:46.447 --> 00:28:53.169
And so I thought it would be fun to make a program where we can have a little bit of camaraderie almost.

376
00:28:53.870 --> 00:28:56.030
And so the internship became that.

377
00:28:56.070 --> 00:29:03.593
And dressing them up in outfits was something that I liked to do.

378
00:29:03.733 --> 00:29:05.274
And I think they still do that there.

379
00:29:06.074 --> 00:29:08.915
But it all came from how I grew up and how I...

380
00:29:09.535 --> 00:29:13.678
was treated at certain jobs and even working at a grocery store, you know.

381
00:29:14.139 --> 00:29:25.927
So the internship, though, became something that, again, I wanted to reflect the culture, the playfulness of a place.

382
00:29:26.207 --> 00:29:31.331
Like that if you can get somebody in where you feel like you're molding them and they're having fun

383
00:29:32.684 --> 00:29:33.885
And this is animation.

384
00:29:33.925 --> 00:29:35.045
We're making cartoons.

385
00:29:35.665 --> 00:29:40.567
They're going to relax and they're going to make amazing work if they feel okay.

386
00:29:41.088 --> 00:29:43.449
And there's the pressure is at the right level.

387
00:29:44.249 --> 00:29:56.314
And I think that was part of it too, you know, is like, let's give them this incredible experience so that they feel like students again, like you're in a college or something and like where all that innovation happens.

388
00:29:56.394 --> 00:29:58.095
And I, I, I still believe that.

389
00:29:59.692 --> 00:30:01.473
I think you're right that a lot of that gets lost.

390
00:30:01.514 --> 00:30:06.717
I mean, I'm a physician, so there's only so much humor that's allowed.

391
00:30:06.897 --> 00:30:26.872
But when you can break that barrier and kind of hit patients in unexpected ways with humor and kind of just being personable, I think it makes such a bigger impact in getting through to them, whatever that message is you're trying to do about health or otherwise, or medicines they should take or procedures they should have.

392
00:30:28.182 --> 00:30:29.043
So I could see that.

393
00:30:29.103 --> 00:30:38.228
I could see that in a place where you have to be creative and you're trying to take a bunch of tense interns and tell them, hey, like, it's okay.

394
00:30:38.969 --> 00:30:39.909
Yeah, you got in here.

395
00:30:39.949 --> 00:30:40.910
Now let's make it fun.

396
00:30:40.930 --> 00:30:42.671
You just beat up.

397
00:30:43.211 --> 00:30:44.532
You're the 1% that got in.

398
00:30:44.592 --> 00:30:45.653
So let's make it fun.

399
00:30:46.353 --> 00:30:49.195
And let's try to do some incredible work.

400
00:30:49.775 --> 00:30:54.158
That's really cool that you say that about being a physician because I agree.

401
00:30:54.917 --> 00:31:05.583
like the humor or how you go into a procedure, you know, like, and there's just so many things that you can relate to that, I bet.

402
00:31:05.803 --> 00:31:15.168
I mean, I think so much is lost kind of in our culture these days because I think a lot of people are afraid to bring humor into different fields and,

403
00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:20.242
You know, I mean, in a different life, I'd like to be a stand-up comedian.

404
00:31:20.823 --> 00:31:22.204
I got to put a lot of practice in it.

405
00:31:22.244 --> 00:31:25.385
But I think it's so important how we all connect, right?

406
00:31:25.445 --> 00:31:33.110
It's just, that is, especially if you're from New York, which I'm not, but there's a lot of good history of comedians up there.

407
00:31:33.930 --> 00:31:34.871
Absolutely.

408
00:31:35.291 --> 00:31:41.975
When I went to college, it was up in Boston, or not college, it was up in D.C. And then I went to residency up in Boston.

409
00:31:45.457 --> 00:31:48.118
cohorts were like sarcastic Northeasterners and my family.

410
00:31:48.198 --> 00:31:48.738
Oh yeah.

411
00:31:49.338 --> 00:31:51.498
They looked at me and they're like, why are you so mean?

412
00:31:51.518 --> 00:31:53.359
I'm like, what are you talking about?

413
00:31:53.379 --> 00:31:54.319
I'm just joking.

414
00:31:54.619 --> 00:31:56.400
But they, they didn't understand.

415
00:31:57.040 --> 00:31:57.480
Yeah.

416
00:31:57.980 --> 00:31:59.160
I got the same thing.

417
00:31:59.300 --> 00:32:04.242
And I, I, I grew up with that in spades, you know, especially with my family.

418
00:32:04.282 --> 00:32:05.962
Like they were real wise guys.

419
00:32:06.022 --> 00:32:09.303
And if you were not on, you just got crushed, you know?

420
00:32:09.383 --> 00:32:09.763
And so.

421
00:32:10.623 --> 00:32:11.843
That's a real thing, you know?

422
00:32:11.983 --> 00:32:15.024
It's a real thing, and it's a real form of humor that I can respect.

423
00:32:15.744 --> 00:32:17.004
Yeah, very much.

424
00:32:17.725 --> 00:32:26.146
Now, I know you are speaking internationally about storytelling and how powerful of a tool it is, not just in animation but in business.

425
00:32:26.946 --> 00:32:39.049
What specifically, you know, did you learn at your time kind of through animation about storytelling that translates to everything else in the world, right, outside of animation?

426
00:32:40.656 --> 00:32:43.624
Well, I think that, you know, there's a lot of things.

427
00:32:44.186 --> 00:32:44.647
First off,

428
00:32:46.048 --> 00:33:04.492
All the stuff that you sort of marinate in, in terms of story, you kind of take away lessons and you learn something new every day, you know, and when you're around people that are trying to tell stories, it's not just for an animated feature.

429
00:33:04.532 --> 00:33:11.573
It could be for how to tell a customer or how to tell the HR department something or

430
00:33:12.981 --> 00:33:16.803
you know, what happens when you tell a story to the board of directors, you know?

431
00:33:17.203 --> 00:33:18.624
Who's your audience, you know?

432
00:33:18.684 --> 00:33:21.586
And so I think I learned a lot of things.

433
00:33:21.646 --> 00:33:27.990
Like I learned a lot about laughs, but I also learned about equally

434
00:33:29.107 --> 00:33:37.934
people really respond to obviously emotion, you know, and heart and memories and something they can relate to.

435
00:33:37.994 --> 00:33:44.559
Like that, it's not often that you see movies where they really move you in a natural way.

436
00:33:45.640 --> 00:33:49.944
And so when I go and I teach and I talk about this stuff, I try to like, look at,

437
00:33:51.115 --> 00:34:02.624
the things that worked about not just the storytelling process of story structures and themes and plots and, you know, controlling ideas and engines and all this.

438
00:34:03.244 --> 00:34:08.848
But I start to look at like, well, what is the culture that you have to also surround yourself with so that you get it right.

439
00:34:09.689 --> 00:34:11.610
And it doesn't just become a,

440
00:34:12.831 --> 00:34:13.472
mediocre.

441
00:34:13.832 --> 00:34:15.213
And that's the hardest part.

442
00:34:15.813 --> 00:34:17.734
And I'm still learning that myself.

443
00:34:17.814 --> 00:34:23.538
So I think that, you know, I just try to take a look at it when I'm talking to companies.

444
00:34:24.554 --> 00:34:34.764
And break it down for them so that they really are very clear about how you start, how you iterate, how you get better story, what are the elements, what are the places that you get stuck.

445
00:34:35.444 --> 00:34:43.632
How do you get through the places where you are stuck and then not waste that crisis and turn it into like a real piece of gold?

446
00:34:44.437 --> 00:34:52.687
Yeah, I mean, I think you're right that the crisis type stories or the failures or the losses or what, in a lot of ways, would stick with people when you're talking about examples.

447
00:34:52.987 --> 00:34:55.010
No one wants you up there just saying how great you are.

448
00:34:56.131 --> 00:34:56.312
No.

449
00:34:56.592 --> 00:34:58.094
I think that they don't relate to that.

450
00:34:58.314 --> 00:34:59.636
They don't learn from that, at least.

451
00:34:59.976 --> 00:35:00.096
Yeah.

452
00:35:00.116 --> 00:35:00.256
Yeah.

453
00:35:00.997 --> 00:35:02.157
No, you're definitely right.

454
00:35:02.998 --> 00:35:08.439
Nobody likes those types of stories, which, you know, you can see on social media, too.

455
00:35:08.479 --> 00:35:16.041
You know, when you look at somebody who might post pictures of their vacation, you're like, do we really care?

456
00:35:16.281 --> 00:35:19.522
You know, people respond more to heartache and trouble.

457
00:35:19.582 --> 00:35:20.062
That's right.

458
00:35:20.082 --> 00:35:20.842
The train wrecks.

459
00:35:21.463 --> 00:35:21.783
Yeah.

460
00:35:22.203 --> 00:35:22.363
Yeah.

461
00:35:23.303 --> 00:35:27.686
Do you have a story that stayed with you as kind of a perfect example of what storytelling can do?

462
00:35:27.786 --> 00:35:30.568
I mean, is there something that sticks out in your mind?

463
00:35:30.648 --> 00:35:31.969
Yeah, actually, I do.

464
00:35:32.789 --> 00:35:41.835
In terms of a success story, I gave a talk a long time ago to Salesforce, to their Ignite group.

465
00:35:42.075 --> 00:35:42.295
Yeah.

466
00:35:43.316 --> 00:35:49.767
A great guy named Scott Jorgensen brought me in to kind of just talk about Pixar storytelling and storytelling in general.

467
00:35:50.489 --> 00:35:53.854
And they liked the framework so much that they really used it.

468
00:35:54.857 --> 00:36:10.140
And we're able to kind of have a lot of success with clients using the process that I took them through, which was like premise, seven step stories, and then iteration on story.

469
00:36:10.200 --> 00:36:12.861
And then, you know, even log lining stories.

470
00:36:12.901 --> 00:36:18.042
And so it really helped them break it down because they kind of use it in a different way.

471
00:36:18.802 --> 00:36:21.422
And that was really exciting to see them do that.

472
00:36:22.343 --> 00:36:23.043
That was very cool.

473
00:36:23.623 --> 00:36:23.843
Yeah.

474
00:36:24.943 --> 00:36:31.248
When you left Pixar, how do you even begin to think of what comes next?

475
00:36:31.268 --> 00:36:33.329
For me, I guess that would be like if I left Medicine.

476
00:36:33.369 --> 00:36:35.891
It's like, what would be after this?

477
00:36:36.832 --> 00:36:41.595
And I tried to at least partially leave at one point, but came right back after six months.

478
00:36:42.756 --> 00:36:45.658
I mean, I didn't leave Animation.

479
00:36:45.678 --> 00:36:46.699
That's true.

480
00:36:46.879 --> 00:36:48.100
I still wanted to be in Animation.

481
00:36:48.140 --> 00:36:49.421
I think that the reason why I left...

482
00:36:50.041 --> 00:37:08.017
Pixar because I was there for 20 years and you know there was there's only so much that you can do um if you're in a certain type of job there and I was kind of interested in what what else could I do and so I got an opportunity to direct you know they asked me if I wanted to direct a movie and I was like yeah I'd like to take a shot at this

483
00:37:09.090 --> 00:37:16.273
And I also got a chance to head an animation unit, like a brand new one in London of all places.

484
00:37:16.313 --> 00:37:17.754
Like, you know, how exciting.

485
00:37:17.814 --> 00:37:18.514
London, Paris.

486
00:37:18.995 --> 00:37:20.035
And so I couldn't pass it up.

487
00:37:20.775 --> 00:37:22.296
So I had a great time.

488
00:37:22.356 --> 00:37:22.896
I learned.

489
00:37:23.157 --> 00:37:24.357
I failed at a lot of things.

490
00:37:24.857 --> 00:37:26.658
But then I learned from those failures.

491
00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:33.741
I got a chance to work with great people, great projects, and do different things, you know.

492
00:37:33.961 --> 00:37:34.962
And so I really...

493
00:37:36.680 --> 00:37:40.945
I'm glad that I took that step because it really made me grow a lot.

494
00:37:42.086 --> 00:37:51.016
And I think that's what I'm always trying to do is I'm just trying to figure out how do I keep growing as a filmmaker or an artist or just a person that wants to do stuff.

495
00:37:51.036 --> 00:37:51.377
Yeah.

496
00:37:53.499 --> 00:37:58.001
that's the key is like, you know, what does it mean that gets you up in the morning?

497
00:37:58.041 --> 00:38:10.687
You know, like, you know, and, and, and I do have a lot of frustration sometimes with the work that we're, you know, I do sometimes, you know, and it's not always perfect and you struggle with that and you try to find like, well, what is it?

498
00:38:10.767 --> 00:38:12.148
What's the thing I'm trying to solve here?

499
00:38:12.708 --> 00:38:12.968
You know?

500
00:38:13.209 --> 00:38:14.589
And so that's what we're trying to do now.

501
00:38:14.649 --> 00:38:15.690
It's really interesting time.

502
00:38:16.623 --> 00:38:21.104
Yeah, I mean, what would you say to someone who's going into animation now?

503
00:38:21.744 --> 00:38:37.149
Because obviously there's the fundamentals and you grew up with the fundamentals, but AI, which is what you're working with now in this company and these new tools, what direction would you give someone who is like, I want to do this, I want to do what you did, but they're coming into it in a different environment?

504
00:38:37.929 --> 00:38:45.457
I would just say, like, learn the, I would always say learn the fundamentals of, like, what is important first.

505
00:38:46.017 --> 00:38:58.229
Because whether or not you use AI or CG or hand-drawn or however you make a story, you still have to understand what makes good stories and study.

506
00:39:00.015 --> 00:39:14.864
And so I would, I would say coming in, you, you still want to make sure that you're really getting that foundation built before you start messing around with technologies that supposedly do it for you, which they don't, they don't do it for you.

507
00:39:15.505 --> 00:39:16.966
They tell mediocre stories.

508
00:39:17.426 --> 00:39:28.433
So, so I think that where, what I think is interesting about artificial intelligence is more that it, it can be like a superpower for you, or it could help you be stronger.

509
00:39:28.453 --> 00:39:28.553
Yeah.

510
00:39:29.465 --> 00:39:36.411
than you might have been, you know, like it might help you with a, a thing that you're not as good at, you know?

511
00:39:36.491 --> 00:39:43.057
And so that's, what's interesting to me, you know, and it also helps you get ideas out of your head that you have had.

512
00:39:43.157 --> 00:39:43.878
Like, think about it.

513
00:39:45.780 --> 00:39:53.506
I don't know how to code, but now if I want, I could use Claude or ChatGPT or whatever, and I could make a program.

514
00:39:54.245 --> 00:39:56.327
And if it's in my head, I can get it pretty damn far.

515
00:39:57.007 --> 00:39:57.708
That's amazing.

516
00:39:58.088 --> 00:39:59.629
That's mind boggling.

517
00:39:59.729 --> 00:40:03.952
You know, and so I think, you know, this is the same with people who have stories to tell.

518
00:40:04.012 --> 00:40:05.133
Like, how are you going to tell them?

519
00:40:05.193 --> 00:40:09.556
You might not have a whole production studio to shoot a giant film.

520
00:40:10.077 --> 00:40:16.822
But if you have an idea and it's really good, it's been in your head for years, then there's some interesting ways to do it now these days.

521
00:40:17.542 --> 00:40:18.223
And that's exciting.

522
00:40:18.983 --> 00:40:20.784
It sounds like the story sells it then.

523
00:40:20.984 --> 00:40:21.605
That's the key.

524
00:40:22.325 --> 00:40:23.186
Yeah, the story.

525
00:40:23.246 --> 00:40:24.587
It's always going to be out of the story.

526
00:40:24.627 --> 00:40:26.288
And everybody's got a great story.

527
00:40:26.728 --> 00:40:34.133
You must have an incredible story about going into space and everything you took from that and the specificity of how you felt.

528
00:40:35.094 --> 00:40:36.335
A lot of people want to see that.

529
00:40:37.189 --> 00:40:42.553
Yeah, well, maybe I'll come to your company and have them put my story out in film.

530
00:40:43.334 --> 00:40:44.775
Totally, yeah.

531
00:40:45.035 --> 00:40:52.741
What would you say, as we're kind of coming to the end, because I want to respect your time, but what would you say to someone who doesn't think they have the right background to pursue what they love?

532
00:40:52.761 --> 00:40:58.305
It doesn't have to be animation, but they feel like, I didn't get the chance to do that, go to school for that, you know?

533
00:41:01.557 --> 00:41:02.398
That's a great question.

534
00:41:02.438 --> 00:41:06.802
I mean, I think that you have to dive in sometimes and just try.

535
00:41:07.322 --> 00:41:09.524
You know, I've tried a lot of things that didn't work out.

536
00:41:10.365 --> 00:41:19.494
And if you have something that's inside of you that you just keeps coming up and you're wanting it, you have to keep trying to do it.

537
00:41:19.654 --> 00:41:20.695
You know, and a lot of people...

538
00:41:22.109 --> 00:41:26.451
you know, they never get to do their dream job or let's say they want to be a Broadway star or something.

539
00:41:26.471 --> 00:41:34.234
And they're working at a table, you know, their, their odds are tough in some areas, you know, but I think as long as you keep, you know,

540
00:41:35.423 --> 00:41:42.825
trying and doing the work and knowing that the overnight success really is technically never overnight.

541
00:41:43.225 --> 00:41:43.986
Yeah.

542
00:41:44.626 --> 00:41:47.367
And understanding that is, is really important.

543
00:41:47.387 --> 00:41:50.668
You know, like I'd love to keep me, I want to still make a movie.

544
00:41:50.728 --> 00:41:53.228
I still have ideas for television shows.

545
00:41:53.628 --> 00:41:54.589
All I can do is try.

546
00:41:55.189 --> 00:41:58.950
And if they're mediocre and people don't like them, then I'll know, okay, I'm

547
00:42:00.342 --> 00:42:04.783
I tried, but I'm not at that level, maybe.

548
00:42:05.483 --> 00:42:08.984
So that's all I think is that you just have to put it in your head and keep going.

549
00:42:10.305 --> 00:42:10.765
I like it.

550
00:42:10.805 --> 00:42:13.885
So it's like persistence, persistence, persistence.

551
00:42:15.106 --> 00:42:15.766
I think so.

552
00:42:15.826 --> 00:42:17.606
I mean, I would ask you the same question.

553
00:42:17.646 --> 00:42:22.488
Like, if I really wanted to be a doctor, but I didn't have the smarts, what would you suggest?

554
00:42:24.088 --> 00:42:24.488
Yeah.

555
00:42:26.149 --> 00:42:27.009
You got to work hard.

556
00:42:27.029 --> 00:42:27.409
Yeah.

557
00:42:28.547 --> 00:42:31.529
Harder than the guy or the gal who does have the smarts, right?

558
00:42:32.390 --> 00:42:32.610
Right.

559
00:42:32.630 --> 00:42:34.351
I had a friend like that in med school.

560
00:42:34.731 --> 00:42:38.494
This guy would party all the time and I'd be studying.

561
00:42:38.694 --> 00:42:44.418
And then two days before the exams, he would just sit there for 48 hours and he just could soak it all up.

562
00:42:45.078 --> 00:42:45.338
Wow.

563
00:42:46.039 --> 00:42:47.360
And I would be like, this is amazing.

564
00:42:47.420 --> 00:42:49.701
And he did very well in medical school.

565
00:42:50.122 --> 00:42:50.882
Incredible.

566
00:42:50.922 --> 00:42:51.843
But his brain just worked.

567
00:42:51.903 --> 00:42:53.064
It just worked differently, right?

568
00:42:53.653 --> 00:42:54.373
That's amazing.

569
00:42:54.633 --> 00:42:54.813
Yeah.

570
00:42:54.973 --> 00:42:58.014
If you try, you can even those odds.

571
00:42:58.214 --> 00:42:58.635
That's it.

572
00:42:58.955 --> 00:43:00.415
Somehow you're going to have to put the work in.

573
00:43:00.955 --> 00:43:01.435
That's right.

574
00:43:02.116 --> 00:43:11.139
So I guess the last question that we ask everyone, and you kind of answered, I think, but what's the space inside yourself or out in the world that you're still reaching for?

575
00:43:11.159 --> 00:43:14.880
That's a great question.

576
00:43:15.780 --> 00:43:18.181
What's the space that I'm still reaching for?

577
00:43:19.313 --> 00:43:25.876
You know, I want to make something on my own that I could look back on and say, it's good.

578
00:43:25.936 --> 00:43:26.396
That's good.

579
00:43:26.576 --> 00:43:28.196
I did a pretty good job on that.

580
00:43:28.777 --> 00:43:29.337
Yeah.

581
00:43:29.357 --> 00:43:40.241
And you could always work on things collectively and films are a lot of people, but I still have aspirations of like...

582
00:43:42.643 --> 00:43:52.927
doing things outside of my comfort zone and really pushing and doing the work, I guess is, is the idea is that like, I don't want to phone it in.

583
00:43:52.947 --> 00:44:04.031
I really want to like craft something, um, similar to when I was at my early days of Pixar was, we really were trying to craft diamonds and I'm, I'm still looking for the diamond.

584
00:44:05.191 --> 00:44:06.211
You want to be challenged.

585
00:44:07.012 --> 00:44:07.332
Yeah.

586
00:44:07.512 --> 00:44:08.192
Yeah, totally.

587
00:44:08.632 --> 00:44:09.653
It is an interesting, uh,

588
00:44:11.592 --> 00:44:12.894
It's an interesting problem.

589
00:44:13.074 --> 00:44:17.200
And that when we're young, we're learning our craft.

590
00:44:17.260 --> 00:44:18.763
We're perfecting our craft.

591
00:44:18.783 --> 00:44:19.403
But by the time...

592
00:44:20.282 --> 00:44:21.863
You're where you are in your career.

593
00:44:21.923 --> 00:44:33.066
And I mean, where I am, that craft is not as exciting because you've leveled, you have some level of mastery and that's good because you should have a level of mastery after 20 years or of doing something.

594
00:44:33.787 --> 00:44:35.887
But it does leave you saying, okay, what's next?

595
00:44:35.947 --> 00:44:38.968
Like, I mean, and you don't want to phone it in, right?

596
00:44:39.268 --> 00:44:45.110
That's not what we're built for or designed for or created for whatever you want to say, but humans need to be challenged.

597
00:44:45.190 --> 00:44:46.871
So, so I like that.

598
00:44:46.911 --> 00:44:47.111
Yeah.

599
00:44:47.131 --> 00:44:48.151
You want to craft something.

600
00:44:48.351 --> 00:44:49.012
It's a good answer.

601
00:44:50.413 --> 00:44:50.733
Thanks.

602
00:44:51.454 --> 00:44:52.356
Well, it was great.

603
00:44:52.696 --> 00:44:53.477
Thank you for having me.

604
00:44:53.978 --> 00:44:55.760
Yeah, thank you so much for being here.

605
00:44:56.061 --> 00:44:57.122
I truly appreciate it.

606
00:44:57.203 --> 00:44:59.386
And yeah, hope to talk more in the future.

607
00:45:00.105 --> 00:45:02.167
Thank you for listening to A Heart for Space.

608
00:45:02.827 --> 00:45:10.634
If you enjoyed this conversation, be sure to follow the show so you never miss an episode and consider leaving us a review to let us know your thoughts.

609
00:45:11.334 --> 00:45:18.761
For more on my work in the pursuit of ambitious goals, visit AHeartForSpace.com and look out for my upcoming book, A Heart for Space.

610
00:45:19.001 --> 00:45:21.463
Until next time, I'm Dr. Iman Jahangir.

611
00:45:21.943 --> 00:45:27.228
And remember, sometimes the only obstacle to achieving an impossible dream is the courage to keep going.